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Monday, February 4, 2008

Book of Revelation Chapter 14. The 144,000 and the Seven Angels

THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

VISION 4: - Ch 12:1-14:5:- SEVEN ORACLES OF THE LAST DAYS.

REVELATION CH 14:1-5.- THE 144,000 ON MT ZION.

REV 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.

REV 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.

REV 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

REV 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

REV 14:5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


A) WHO ARE THEY?

The identification of theses was discussed in Ch 7 so we will only summarise that here.

(1) "144,000" = 12x12x10x10x10.
12 was the number of Israel in the OT, but in the NT is the Church. The 12 patriarchs have been replaced by the 12 apostles.

C/f Rev 21,22 - the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, the Church is symbolised in multiples of 12 and 10. It is a cube, having 12 edges, the length of each edge is said to be 12,000 stadia:

12 X 12,000 = 144,000.

In other words 144,000 is a symbolic way of describing the external dimensions of the Church, i.e. it's numerical size, hence the 144,000 is the completed Church.

(2) "Who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads"
This is a promise to the overcomers of the Church (3:12).

(3) Rev 14:3 "Who alone had been redeemed" (Greek literally).
I.e. only the 144,000 have been redeemed from the earth, yet I am redeemed, and so is every Christian. Therefore there must be an identity between the 144,000 and the Church.

“from the whole earth" - This phrase indicates that they were Gentiles, not just Jews.

(4) "first fruits" (14:4) - c/f James 1:18 = the Church.

(5) "virgins" (14:4).
Meant in the spiritual sense - these have not committed spiritual adultery with the harlot of ch17, the whore Babylon, which is the origin and expression of all false religion. This is a common metaphor.

(6) "with the Lamb on Mt Zion". (14:1).
"With the Lamb" The title "Lamb" suggests that their relationship to Christ is one in which they are redeemed by his blood, his sacrificial death. Hence they are believers in Jesus as the Lamb of God, they are Christians.

"Mt Zion" - In the OT was a literal place, the site of the Temple, Jerusalem. However in the NT it is seen to be a spiritual reality, a place of separation and relationship with God.
Hebrews 12:22-24.

The conclusion we are forced to is that this group is the Church.

(b) WHAT ARE THEY DOING ON MT ZION?

Again another Jewish writing provides the answer.
This is from the Apocrypha - remember that a large part of the Church still accepts this writing as being canonical.

2 Esdras 2:42-48 (NEB).
"I, Ezra, saw on Mt Zion a crowd too large to count, all singing hymns of praise to the Lord. In the middle stood a very tall young man, taller than all the rest, who was setting a crown (stephanos) on the head of each of them, he stood out above them all. I was enthralled at the sight, and asked the angel, "Sir, who are these?" He replied, "They are those who have laid aside their mortal garments and put on the immortal, those who acknowledged the name of God. Now they are being given crowns and palms." And I asked again, "Who is the young man setting crowns on their heads and giving them palms?" And the Angel replied, "He is the son of God, whom they acknowledged in this mortal life..."

The parallel is obvious. This suggests that Revelation 14:1-5 is a picture of the judgement seat of Christ where Christians receive their rewards.

Other Comments:

14:2 "the sound of many waters...thunder...harps".
These three are intended to take our minds to other references in REVELATION to the same sounds, hence we see the same people here.

C/F 15:2 - "Harps” .But it is the Church playing them in heaven.

14:3 "a new song" - the song of the Redeemed.

14:4 "first fruits".
This title has been taken by some to suggest that the 144,000 are some select group from among the Church and not the whole harvest. However this is not necessarily so. The title is used elsewhere in the Bible to mean the whole group:
James 1:18 = the Church.
Jeremiah 2:3 = Israel.
Another OT symbol of Israel is given to the Church.
The idea of “first fruits” comes from the OT tithe. The tithe was the “first fruits” of the harvest and went to God. It was God’s portion. The rest of the harvest belonged to the farmer.
In the same way the “first fruits” here means “that which is God’s portion”. It does not imply the rest of the earth’s harvest belongs to God. Hence “first fruits” here means “all those who are Christ’s”.

The title has a finer symbolic meaning - The first fruits were that portion specially devoted and consecrated to God, and this is the sense we find in Jeremiah 2:3. Hence here we are to see the emphasis on the DEVOTION of these people to Christ - they "Loved not their lives unto death". Their lives were totally consecrated.

"chaste" - or virgins.
Greek = parthenos = a virgin of marriagable age. It was generally used of men who hadn't touched a woman.
It was often used in the sense of those who abstain from sex for some purpose, in particular soldiers would abstain while the campaign lasted - hence the stand taken by Uriah (2 Samuel 11:11). For this reason the newly married were excused from duty (Deut 20:7).
Hence John is suggesting here that the 144,000 are the "soldiers of the cross".


VISION 5: - REVELATION 14:6-20: - THE SEVEN ANGELS.

INTRODUCTION:

The seven angels are found in v 6,8,9,14,15,17,18.
The repetition of the idea of "seven angels" suggests that these are again the seven archangels. However the description "another angel" seems to set them against the angels we have already seen. The problem may only be cosmetic. The set of seven angels probably indicates it is the archangels.


(1) 14:6,7:- THE ETERNAL GOSPEL PROCLAIMED.

REV 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth- to every nation, tribe, language and people.

REV 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

"flying in mid heaven".
This was the place where Satan had his throne, the second heavens, or the "heavenlies". However now he has been cast down to earth. The free flight of the angel indicates that there is now no opposition to his flight, nor to his message.

This indicates that there is tremendous liberty on earth for the preaching of the gospel. Even though the Church appears to have lost its formal structure through persecution, its vitality is greater than it has been since the early chapters of Acts.
C/f Matthew 24:14.
The flying forth of the angel symbolises the freedom of the gospel on earth. The Church is reaching out to the unsaved and they are being saved in unprecedented numbers. A great ingathering is taking place (see parable of Matthew 13).

This suggests that all of the philosophies and "isms" in the world have been cast down and shown to be false as prophesied in Hebrews 12:26-28. If men reject the gospel now it is not because of any viable alternative, but because of outright rebellion.

"with an eternal gospel"
Greek = evangellon = good news.
John, having mentioned the word "gospel" now expects us to fill in the details for ourselves.

Dispensationalists say that this is not the same gospel as what we preach, rather is a gospel of the Kingdom for Jews (see Walvoord). However the text tells us that its message is directed to "those that dwell on earth, to all nations, etc."
Schofield also identifies this as being another gospel, in fact he identifies four gospels. But Paul says:
(i) There is only one Gospel.
(ii) It is the message of Christ's earth for all men for all time.
(iii) It was preached beforehand to Abraham.
(iv) Anyone preaching "another gospel" is to be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9).

14:7 This is the first of three proclamations.
This pronouncement is not itself a gospel message, but it is PART of the gospel message. Judgement is part of the message we have to preach (e.g. John 3:16-19, Romans 2:16). If God is going to judge the world we should fall down, repent and worship him.

"the hour of his judgement has come".
Not the literal hour necessarily, but it is so immanent that there is no time to play - men need to repent. There is still time.

"he who made...".
The references to waters recall the first four trumpets. They were a warning to men to repent to avoid the full judgement to come. The angel here interprets them as such.

This is a final call to repentance:
"God's judgement is coming - so repent!"


(2) 14:8:- THE FALL OF BABYLON IS ANNOUNCED.

REV 14:8 A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

The details of this are found in Ch 17,18.

"Made all nations drink".
The emphasis on the "all" is important. This indicates that we are not just looking at a physical city which - for part of human history - has not existed. Rather we are seeing the destruction of a system - a system of worship - begun in Babylon - to which all countries and civilizations in some way succumbed.

"wine of her impure passion"
"wine".-
An OT symbol for the joy brought by religion. Hence we are clearly seeing here a religious system.
"impure passion". - A sexual reference, but it is intended to be seen spiritually. However the religion of Babylon is immoral to a horrible degree.

Beasley Murray: "The Greek is literally 'the wine of the wrath of her fornication'. It has two ideas:
(i) Her wine leads to fornication. In all other religions this was true. Wine was used to release inhibitions, drunkenness lead to immorality.
(ii) Her wine is associated with wrath. Hence B-M paraphrases:

"she made all nations drink the wine which leads to fornication and the wine of God's wrath."

C/f Habakkuk 2:15,16.

The "wine of God's wrath" is mentioned again in the next pronouncement.

(3) 14:9-11:- WARNING OF JUDGMENT ON THE ANTICHRIST.

REV 14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

REV 14:10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

REV 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

The details are found in Revelation 19:20,21.

14:9. This warning is intended for the ears of two groups of people:
(i) Pagan Worshipers.
(ii) Christians tempted by persecution to commit apostacy.

"worships...receives a mark".
Two aspects of total commitment to the world system:
(i) "Worships the beast..." - giving him what belongs only to God.
(ii) "receives the mark..." - showing that one is OWNED by the system of Antichrist.

14:10 "poured unmixed".
Greek literlally = "mixed unmixed".
The ancient usage of this phrase means "mixed with spice to make it strong but not diluted with water."

"God's wrath".
Three stages:
(i) The Bowls.
(ii) Armageddon.
(iii) Hell.
C/f Jeremiah 25:15 - a loose quote.

"fire and brimstone".
C/f Genesis 19:24. The first Sodom was destroyed by these so they are a fitting punishment for the Spiritual Sodom also.

"wrath" - anger of a more passionate kind.

"anger" - anger of a settled disposition.
This verse says clearly that there are two aspects to God's anger. The destruction of the world will only come about when these two aspects are mixed together.

"in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb"
Difficult, to say the least. John has used here a popular idea found in the Book of Enoch (53:3-5), that the angels will preside over the judgement of the wicked in Hell. Jesus says the same thing (Matthew 13:41,42).
The addition of Christ's presence makes judgement more personal to God.

Spencer suggests that Heaven is Hell. He argues thus: “Our God is a consuming fire. But the righteous are pure so the fire cannot touch us. For us it is heaven. For the unrepentant sinner it is a terrifying fire of torment, an eternal pain to be forever in God's presence being fully aware of sin and guilt.”
There is some merit in this idea. The idea that Hell is "out of God's presence" is not scripturally possible - God is Omnipresent. But one can be in God's presence yet be totally without his favour.

14:11. "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever".
C/f 19:3 - like the smoke of Babylon.

My Theory: - Man's destiny has always been earth centred in God's plan. There is no reason to assume that will change with Eternity. We are going to "reign on earth" and to do this we are to receive "resurrection bodies". However we often forget that the unsaved are also going to receive "resurrection bodies" (Revelation 20:5,11ff) and that their destiny is also eternal and also earth related.
Hence we must assume that they spend eternity on earth also. Is Hell to be created out of the destruction of Babylon? It was the seat of Satan's throne and deception on earth. There is no indication in the Bible that Hell already exists - the Antichrist and False prophet appear to be the first to be "cast into the lake of fire". The present state of the dead is that they await the resurrection in Hades.
Hence there seems to be no need for Hell to exist until the Parousia, when Babylon is destroyed.


14:12,13 INTERLUDE:- THE STATE OF THE SAINTS.

Again John has built up to judgement, but he stops to encourage the saints.

REV 14:12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

REV 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

14:12 "here is a call for the endurance of the saints"
C/f 13:10.
This repetition of a phrase is a common Hebrew technique. The aim is to isolate a portion, like using brackets, around which the train of thought is continuous. Hence we are intended to see a logical connection between 13:10 and 14:12. I.e. 13:11 - 14:11 are in one sense an "interruption" in the flow of the narrative. However John has overridden this with the sequences of sevens, Seven Oracles, then Seven Angels.
John is trying to tell us, however, that the two contents are related in some way at this point. What he has done in Ch 13 is build up to a point in the narrative, and now again he has reached the same point.
The implication is clear - there is going to be a large scale persecution of Christians resulting in many martyrdoms. The time sequence here seems to be near the end of the last 3 1/2 years, so it could be a reference to the persecution of the last 10 days (2:10 11:7-10).

14:13 "Blessed..."
A special blessing on the martyrs - how fitting, What a way to Go!
It is a double blessing - the voice speaking on behalf of God, then the Spirit speaks.

"they rest form their labours, for their deeds follow them."
"rest"
means to be apart from the body, waiting for the resurrection.
"labours" - the trials of this life.
"their deeds" - the works of faith they have attempted. This reflects the belief that everything we do has a permanent existence in some way apart from ourselves.


(4) & (5):- 14:14-16:- THE REAPING OF THE GRAIN.

REV 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

REV 14:15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

REV 14:16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

We have here the first of two harvest pictures, presenting a double harvest, just as there is in Palestine first the grain then the vintage. However in Palestine seven months separate the two, here they come together in time.

C/f Matthew 13:39.
The symbolism is, in part, taken from the stars. It is BOOTES, a decan of Virgo, a picture of a man walking rapidly, carrying a sickle in one hand and a shepherd’s crook in the other. His name means "The Coming One", and he has always been identified with the manchild of Coma, the child of Virgo, the seed of the Woman. He is also called ACTURUS, which is also the name of the star in his knee meaning "He Cometh". The Greeks called him "the Keeper of Arktos". Arktos is a constellation known today as the "Two Bears", but was originally known as "The Greater and Lesser Sheepfolds". I.e. BOOTES is a shepherd, c/f 1 Peter 5:4. The picture clearly speaks of the Messiah coming to reap the harvest of his people.

"one like a son of man".
Two suggestions as to his identity:
(a) Christ.
(i) The astrological interpretation suggests the identification of this "son of man" with Christ, and many interpreters take this line.
(ii)The title "son of man" is a clear reference back to Daniel 7:13 and the favourite title of Christ for himself.
(iii) He is wearing a "crown" - unlikely if he is an angel.
(iv) Christ is said to descend with angels at the Second Coming.
(v) The "sickle" suggest Christ, who reaps the grain harvest (Luke 3:17).

(b) An Angel.
(i) The tone of the command given by the second angel could indicate that the first being is not Christ - Christ would hardly take orders from an angel. Leon Morris says that the tone of the command is such that it makes it impossible for the "son of man" here to be Christ.
(ii) If it is Christ why didn't John just say so?
(iii) If the being here is not an angel then the system of sevens is destroyed, and we should not do this because of the symmetry of the book. John has slavishly adhered to his patterns of sevens so far.
(iv) The "crown" is a stephanos, a victor's crown. Christ is normally presented as having a diadema, a king's crown, at his coming . Angels and saints are seen wearing stephanos elsewhere.

However it is probably better to see John here reinterpreting the ancient symbols.
Hence we see this son of man as an angel who represents Christ, after all the angels will reap with him (Matthew 24:31).

14:15 "another angel" - the fifth.

"the hour to reap".
God's predetermined time has finally arrived. No man knows the day or the hour. Hence this angel is sent from the throne to tell.

"harvest of the earth is fully ripe".
The grain harvest is meant, though we find in the next vision that the vintage is also ripe.
Grain grows on the earth, it matures there. But once maturity is arrived at it does not need the earth to sustain its existence. It will not wither when harvested, unlike the grapes which will soon go sour.

"harvest".
Recalls the idea that Christ is the first fruits (1 Corinthians 15:23).
The rapture is clearly in mind here.

"fully ripe" - Greek = exeranthe = "overripe, so ripe it has begun to wither and dry up".
This has led some interpreters to suggest that this and the next vision are actually describing the same thing, the destruction of the wicked.
E.g Walvoord:- "It has a bad connotation, it is a picture of rottenness and corruption."
Beasley Murray:- "C/f Joel 3:13 - Hebrew parallelism demands that both symbols be interpreted as bad."
Caird:- "Harvest and vintage are both OT symbols of divine judgment on Israel or their enemies."
Kiddle:- "It is the mowing down of the nations."

However we are not forced into accepting this conclusion.

(i) Caird:- The figure of the son of man reaping is to do with the rapture (Mark 13:27 Matthew 24:31, etc).
(ii) The noun "harvest" (therismos) and verb (therizo) are never used in the sense of mowing down Israel's enemies in the LXX. In the NT they are always used of gathering the elect.
(iii) "fully ripe" -does not necessarily mean "overripe", but simply "mature", i.e. the time is right for harvesting. It could imply:
* The exact time.
** God has stretched the time past the usual time for harvest so more can repent.
(iv) The parallel of the two visions with Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 is obvious. A double harvest - the grain is for salvation, the tares for burning.
Hence it seems best to understand this as referring to the rapture, the harvest of the righteous.

If we do accept this interpretation then it presents an insurmountable problem for Dispensationalists who claim the rapture has taken place some seven years previously. also Matthew 13 clearly indicates that the harvest is "at the end of the age", not seven years before it, and that the evil and the righteous are harvested at the same time, as we find here.

(6) & (7):- 14:17-20:- THE VINTAGE OF GOD'S WRATH.

REV 14:17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.

REV 14:18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe."

REV 14:19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.

REV 14:20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

Clearly a harvest of Judgement.

14:18 "the angel who has power over fire".
Traditionally believed to be one of the archangels. The idea of the angels controlling the elements is common in Jewish literature.

"the clusters of the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe".
Remembering that "wine" is a symbol of religious joy we see here, in the "vine", the source of that wine - the religious system of Babylon.
It is identified as "the vine of the earth", fixing its location and home. It belongs to the earth, that is where it gets its life from. It has no heavenly origin. Its nature is earthly. A vine needs the earth to survive and when its roots are torn up its fruit withers. I.e. it is dependent on the earth for survival. There is again the aspect of commitment to the earth implied here. It is not the heavenly vine (John 15:1ff).

14:19 "the great winepress of the wrath of God". C/f 19:15.
Joel 3:13; Isaiah 63:3; Zechariah 14:1-5; Daniel 11:45; Ezekiel 39:1-10.

14:20 "trodden outside the city".
Which "city" is not identified, but most commentators assume Jerusalem is the "city", because of the allusion to Armageddon. However that does not exhaust the meaning. the "city" in REVELATION has nearly always meant Babylon, which is also to be destroyed in a literal sense at the end of the age. However the "city" has also meant a system of government and religion, an economic system which pervades the whole of man's society.
This could suggest that there is a separation by God of fallen mankind and the system that they are under. God judges the system of Babylon finally and totally, but his love still extends to the men who embraced it. This would seem to fit in with the sequence of things God has already done - he has destroyed all other "isms" and philosophies, now he finally shows that pure Satanism, the Ultimate in Humanism, and the Antichrist are all "broken reeds".

Alternative interpretations:

(i) Caird (p 191-194).
The city is the system of the world. To be outside the city in REVELATION has always meant so far to be A Christian, the place of crucifixion and martyrdom. Therefore John is portraying here the martyrdom of the Church.

Objection:- It is hard to see how the Church has become the object of God's Wrath in this way.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 clearly says we are not liable to wrath.

(ii) Ladd.
The city is the heavenly city, i.e. they are shut out from God's presence and are destroyed.

Objection:- The reference to the "city" here leads directly into Ch 17 (the chapter divisions are not original). In ch 17 the city is Babylon, for it to be the heavenly city here we would expect some clear indication that it is not Babylon as the context would imply.

"1600 stadia" = about 200 miles.
(i) 1600 = 4x4x10x10. 4 = the earth, 10 = perfect in judgement.
Hence the squaring of both numbers indicates a perfect complete judgement on mankind. It spreads over the whole earth.
(ii) 1600 = 40x40 40 = testing in judgement, punishment. Hence the squaring of it suggests it is done perfectly.

2 comments:

Bible Prophecy on the Web said...

Revelation 14:14-16 references the Seventh TRUMPET (1 Thess.4:16-17).

Revelation 14:17-20 references the gathering to the battle of Armageddon.


Revelation chapter 14:14-20 -

The entire body of Christ throughout all ages are in heaven at the Seventh TRUMPET; the earth is reaped (Re.14:14-16 below). The Seventh Trumpet occurs prior to the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon is a Plague event.

At the Sixth PLAGUE (Re.16:12-16) the way is "prepared" for the soon coming battle of Armageddon. The clusters of the vine of the earth are gathered for the battle (Re.14:17-20).


The Seventh Trumpet Ascension -

Re.14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Re.14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud (Re.14:14 above), Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe (Re.14:16 below).

Re.14:16 And he that sat on the cloud (Re.14:14 above) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped (Re.14:15 above).


Gathering for the battle of Armageddon -

Re.14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Re.14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle (Re.14:17 above), saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe (Joel 3:13, Isa.63:3 below).

Re.14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into THE GREAT WINEPRESS OF THE WRATH of God (Joel 3:13 below).

Re.14:20 And the winepress was trodden without (outside) the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.

Joel 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; FOR THEIR WICKEDNESS [IS] GREAT.

Isa.63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people [there was] none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.


Patricia (ndbpsa ©) Bible Prophecy on the Web
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

John Brough said...

John Says:
While I agree the entire church is reaped at the seventh trumpet I have difficulty with your idea that the seals, trumpets and bowls MUST be sequential. They are clearly concurrent - the seventh seal, seventh trumpet and seventh bowl are described in exactly the same way and the normal Jewish principle of interpretation (called Gezera shawa) indicates that we must identify them as being the same thing. Unless, of course, you want to say the same thing happens three times during the tribulation.

Why you should be so insistent that the seals must precede the trumpets which must precede the bowls I am not sure. This seems like you are imposing a rigid linear time line structure on the book of Revelation that has to be adhered to. Yet you are quite happy to dispense with this rigid sequence when it suits - as in the present post where you clearly identify the seventh trumpet with the harvest reaping of Rev ch 14. Thus you indicate that you don't think Revelation is a strict linear sequence of events but that it goes over the same events several times in different ways - i.e. it is a cyclic presentation of events not a linear presentation.

Really you can't have it both ways to suit yourself - it is either linear or it is cyclic but not both. I am happy to understand it is a cyclic pattern as it makes more sense that way.