“With his Saints” or “For his Saints.”
One of the arguments
put forward in support of a pre-tribulation rapture is that there are verses
that speak of Christ coming “for his saints” and there are verse saying he
comes “with his saints.”
The verses in question
are as follows:
This first group
describe his coming “FOR his saints.”
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18:"For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming [parousia] of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep [died]. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words."
This has a parallel in 1 Corinthians 15:51,52:
"Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."
John 14:3:
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself so that where I am, there you may be also.”
There are others, but these are sufficient.
One point that it is absolutely vital to note is that, in none of these scriptures referring to the “going of the church to be with Christ” at the end of the age, is the actual phrase “coming for his saints” used. This may not seem significant but it is.
The next group describes his coming “With his saints”:
1Thess. 3:13
"...so that he may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints.
Jude 14
Speaking of the Second Coming: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones…”
The word “saints” is, in the Greek, hagios and it means, literally, “separate, holy (ones)”. The Hebrew has several related words based around the same root idea of separation. It is used regularly of God’s people in both the Old and New Testaments.
I know Christians are “saints” so we could substitute one word for another but to do so is not necessarily going to give the right answer. Evangelicals believe in the Divine inspiration of Scripture and this inspiration extends to the actual words used in particular places so it is not necessarily legitimate to simply substitute one idea for another. This is a case in point.
The word hagios is also used in another way, referring to the holy angels. During the inter-testament period “Holy Ones” became a common name for angels. This is evidenced by the Apocryphal “Book of Enoch” where angels are always called “Holy Ones”. Enoch is directly quoted in Jude 14 speaking of the Second Coming: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones…” The translators of the NIV have correctly translated it “Holy Ones” because that is the meaning of it in Enoch, and there it means “angels.” It is not a reference to the redeemed saints of God.
Thus, in fact, one of the two references in the New Testament to “the Saints/ holy ones” coming WITH Christ at the end of the age (Jude 14) is actually talking about angels, not about redeemed men and women.
Thus Jude is in synch with other passages of scripture that speak of Christ coming with the angels at the end of the age such as:
MATT 13:41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they
will weed out
of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do
evil.
MATT 13:42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace,
where there will be
weeping and gnashing of teeth.
MATT 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet
call, and they
will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of
the heavens to
the other.
1THES 4:16 For the Lord
himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
2THES 1:7 and give
relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This
will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in
blazing fire
with his powerful angels.
Arguably the other (1 Thess 3:13) could mean the same – angels and not men which is probably why the NIV translates it “holy ones”.
The normal rule of interpreting scripture (the law of comparison) is that when we are faced with a choice of meanings (i.e. Does hagios mean people or angels in 1 Thess 3:13) we should give weight to the other scriptures that seem to be talking about the same thing and use the definitions we derive from them in the place where there is debate. Jude is clearly angels (one only has to read Enoch to see this) and there are several other clear references to Jesus coming with angels. The law of comparison dictates that 1 Thess 3:13 is most likely to be understood as “angels”.
So besides there being NO actual instances of the phrase “coming FOR his saints” in the New Testament there is probably no actual use of the phrase “Coming with his saints” – meaning redeemed people – in the New Testament either.
But there is a lot of talk about Jesus coming “with the angels” and when he does that he will take his followers to be with him.
So the argument put forward that: “there is a difference between Christ coming FOR his saints and his coming WITH his saints” actually has no place in Biblical interpretation as neither phrase actually occurs in scripture. One can hardly build a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church on the basis of two fabricated phrases that don’t actually appear in scripture.
Now I presume that the “dead in Christ” will come with Christ at the time of the rapture so that they can receive their resurrection bodies – but this does not help the pre-tribulation argument here and the “coming with his saints” that they are arguing for is actually at the END of the tribulation, on the day of the Lord.
